balancing renewable with ecosystems

[Sean DEpagnier]

Hydroelectric dams are a bad idea. They seem like a source of cheap power, but they destroy river ecosystems. In a sense they are very expensive power. I would like to see the dams removed.

Wind power can kill birds and bats. Sure we can put lights on the blades to help, but it is an often unregistered cost, and one that cannot be easily solved. It In this case it is fairly small amounts of deaths. They also change the air-flow over a region which could at a large enough scale change weather patterns.. another cost. That being said, I am looking for glow-in-the-dark paint for my wind generator since I already injured 1 bird crossing the pacific.

I am wondering what the best way to balance PV with ecosystems might be. I have pondered this one a bit. If we covered a fraction of the deserts in the world with PVs it would supply all the energy needs, but it could destroy the homes of countless creatures in those areas. Again, an often unmeasured cost.

One idea I had was, we may destroy one habitat, but if we can create another it would at least not leave us with a lifeless solar farm. For example, under each solar panel, a cistern to store the water that lands on the panel during the brief rains to allow for certain species to thrive. Initially the ground would have a layer of the right types of organic matter which would trap the water and stop it from sinking too deep and flowing away from the plants. Only a fraction of the area would actually need to be be covered with PV. The rest, the sunlight would filter through making it available for plant life. The PV would be at the right high above ground to permit a lush undergrowth. The PV could absorb wavelengths unuseful for photosynthesis like green light and other non-visible wavelengths. I propose various small-scale experiments to determine the feasibility. Anyone have experience with this?

[Dale Sheler]

They also change the air-flow over a region which could at a large enough scale change weather patterns.. another cost.


Sorry to be brutally blunt here but that part is total BS, the wind drives the turbines not the other way around.

[Sean DEpagnier]

Sorry to be brutally blunt here but that part is total BS, the wind drives the turbines not the other way around.

At current wind farm scales it is negligible, but I am just bringing up the point that impeding airflow does change weather patterns. Mountains do this. Forests do this. Wind generators do this. Wind generators extract energy from the wind and thus slow the speed of the wind. Slowing the speed of the wind changes the weather itself. The pendulum swings both ways.

[Dave Turpin]

The idea that renewable power is altruistic is nonsense. We do it so that mankind can exist as is does now indefinitely. The idea is not to prevent environmental effects. Why do we worry about global warming? For the Earth? No. The Earth is perfectly happy being hot and muggy, as it has been most of it's history. We worry about global warming because we are comfortable, and we don't want to lose beachfront property.

[Dale Sheler]

The idea that renewable power is altruistic is nonsense. We do it so that mankind can exist as is does now indefinitely. The idea is not to prevent environmental effects. Why do we worry about global warming? For the Earth? No. The Earth is perfectly happy being hot and muggy, as it has been most of it's history. We worry about global warming because we are comfortable, and we don't want to lose beachfront property.

Well said.

[Russ Bailey]

The idea that renewable power is altruistic is nonsense. We do it so that mankind can exist as is does now indefinitely. The idea is not to prevent environmental effects. Why do we worry about global warming? For the Earth? No. The Earth is perfectly happy being hot and muggy, as it has been most of it's history. We worry about global warming because we are comfortable, and we don't want to lose beachfront property.

Well put!

I recommend the OP try reading something except loony green sites.

If low speed commercial turbines kill a bird or a bat the critter was so stupid it needed killed. Lights on the blades ? Come on!

I am sure there is a village somewhere that really could use the OP.

No way for mankind to go backward - that would only mean mass starvation - starting with the poorest.

We have to struggle our way ahead - or crawl under a rock and give up. That is not my choice.

Best suggestion to young ones - get an education that will lead to a useful job in the future. I was reading an article a few minutes back about how US universities are turning out far to many liberal arts majors whose degrees will be more or less useless to them.

[Chris Olson]

Wind power can kill birds and bats.

Exhaust emissions from coal or natural gas fired power plants can kill birds or bats too.

I think just about anything that humans do to generate power is going to kill birds and bats one way or another. Or other animals and ecosystems that are destroyed by mining coal or drilling and refining oil, or the infrastructure required to transport fossil fuels from the raw materials to the final place of use.

Using hydro, wind or solar has the least environmental impact, I believe, of other methods. So if we pull out all the hydro dams, and take down the turbines and solar arrays to save a few birds and bats, what is the human race going to do? "Drill, baby, drill", to quote a politician from the last US election? Or turn the lights off?

I've met some of these "tree huggers" that don't want power plants or don't want wind turbines because it's destroying us all. But they sure enjoy sitting in front of their power sucking big screen TV set watching National Geographic Channel with the air conditioning going full blast, while drinking a cold beer that they got out of their electric powered 'fridge.

There's a thing called "common sense".
--
Chris

[Ralph Day]

True Chris

Maybe it comes down to the fact that industrial wind turbines can be seen by anyone without much effort while driving around. Strip coal mines, oil and gas pipelines, tar sands are all mostly out of sight out of mind.

I have solar panels and a little wind turbine and find them agreeable to look at (they are providing me with power and income). Some people don't like the look of either and I can't imagine why (solar panels just sit in the sun and work, small wind turbines mostly sit in the sun and don't produce anything:laugh:)

Ralph

[Chris Olson]

Maybe it comes down to the fact that industrial wind turbines can be seen by anyone without much effort while driving around. Strip coal mines, oil and gas pipelines, tar sands are all mostly out of sight out of mind.


I had meant to reply to this when I got the email from the board that said you had replied to it, Ralph. But just getting around to it now. :eek:

There are some issues that are real when utility scale wind turbines are sited too close to residential areas. If you lived within a 1/4 mile of a Vestas V82 shadow flicker, noise and ice throw-off would be no laughing matter. And siting turbines in unpopulated rural areas often has problems with the grid infrastructure not being able to carry the power when the wind blows decent.

However, living within a 1/4 mile of a nuclear or coal fired power plant would be no bed of roses either. I think ultimately the answer lies in distributed power generation. The grid infrastructure is going to fail eventually. It's not if, it's when. The power outage in the southwest US recently is an example of how fragile that system is. It's a house of cards. And industrialized society depends on this fragile system - life as you know it comes to a grinding halt when it fails.

There will always be people who complain about the sun coming up every day, and no matter where you site a wind turbine somebody will find fault with it, somehow. If I was in control I'd load all those people up in C-130's and drop them off in the middle of the Antarctic continent where there's nothing for them to complain about because there's nothing there. No hydroelectric dams, no birds and bats, no wind turbines to kill the birds and bats, no electricity, no cars - nothing. Just beautiful, pristine wilderness unspoiled by anything man has done. And then they'd complain because it's too cold.
--
Chris