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Dave Turpin
14th May 2012, 22:44
As promised, please allow me to share some pictures and lessons learned with the installation of a Rinnai Condensing tankless water heater and hydronic furnace.

Background: I wanted to remove the clunker of an old gas furnace and the old 50-gallon tank water heater. The water heater still had a pilot light! That's how old it was.

I did not want to spend my life savings, but I found that DIY is not only feasible, but LEGAL, at least in my area.

List of parts:
-Rinnai RC98i tankless water heater. 199,000 BTU/hr, 96% thermally efficient (0.94 EF), capable of 9.8 GPM of flow at 50F rise in temp.
-Coaxial exhaust plumbing, specifically for Rinnai condensing units. 2-45's, 7-30" pieces, roof cap.
-Rinnai 75,000 BTU/hr hydronic air handler. Rated at this heat transfer rate with 150F hot water and 50F rise in air temp.
-Whole house air cleaner and electrostatic precipitator
-Various HVAC plumbing
-Various valving, plumbing, thermostatic valve, air seperator
-Screws, tape, various PVC parts to make condensate Neutralizer
Total cost including little bits: $5120.
Total cost if you wanted a plumber to install it: Don't know. A lot.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. Puget Sound Energy gave me a $800 rebate for installing this bad boy. So the net cost to me was only $4320. You might ask, "what is the payback period for this?" There are a couple ways to look at it. One, if I somehow manage to cut my gas use in half, I will save about $720 a year. So in less than a decade it will pay for itself. But the real answer is: Immediately! Assuming that I intend to sell the house, installing a brand new high efficiency water heater and furnace will more than pay for itself in the sale price. (As a rule of thumb, no buyer will pay extra for a high efficiency water heater, but they also cannot "demand" money off to replace an old furnace, either. I actually talked the seller down $10,000 to deal with the old furnace and heater... So I am already $5680 ahead of the game)

I don't have all the pictures of the step-by-step, but here are some of the major ones.

After cutting out the old water heater, here is the mounting of the new one:

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/AprilandMay2012183.jpg

As you can see, I had to plumb in new gas line. This is where the gas inspection came in. Not as easy as replacing a tank heater with another tank heater! However I did not have trouble with leaks. Lesson learned, though: The proper way to test the gas is:

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/AprilandMay2012188.jpg

Instead of an elbow coming into the heater, use a tee, and add an extra length that you can connect a gas gauge to. (These gas gauges are available at Home Depot, etc) The gas is off of course. Unscrew the outlet from the gas meter, and plug it. I found it easiest to remove the connector entirely and just threaded a plug into the gas line. Shut any valves to other appliances. Then pump up with a bike pump. If it doesn't hold pressure at 10 psi for several hours, you may have a leak. After you pass inspection, remove the gauge and cap it, then reattach the gas line to the meter, turn the gas on, and soap bubble test the cap and meter.

Of course, you need to provide power for the water heater, off a GFCI line. I wired one in (don't tell anyone that I did the wiring myself... As well as the wiring for my entire house)

Before I finished the plumbing, though, I took out this:

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/AprilandMay2012182.jpg

And put in this:

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/AprilandMay2012186.jpg

Follow the diagram for plumbing that comes with the handler. The simplest explanation is that lines tee off of the cold and hot water lines from the tankless hot water heater.

Lesson learned 2: The tankless water heater can only produce one temperature! In order to work efficiently, you need to turn the hot water heater up all the way (140F is the highest you can get with the factory-installed temperature controller, and only after overriding a setting in the heater) This means the air handler can only produce about 72000 BTU/hr (my calculations), and you MUST use a tempering valve to cool the DHW to a safe temperature. In these pictures I had not yet installed this valve.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/AprilandMay2012185.jpg

There I am cramped in my mechanical room with not enough light.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/AprilandMay2012190.jpg

There is the plumbing for the air handler going in.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/AprilandMay2012189.jpg

Reconstructing the HVAC plenums. Some would consider this the hard part. I had to make some custom pieces to make it all fit with the old air ducting, and in some cases I redirected ducting to improve balance. I happen to be a Mechanical Engineer. (Although my specialty is Naval Architecture, believe it or not)

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/AprilandMay2012187.jpg

And there is the all-plumbed-up view. Again, without the tempering valve. You will see that I added a new expansion tank, the exhaust, etc.

A note on the exhaust: I only used so much because I wanted to reuse my furnace chimney. There are probably easier ways to do this. It was a serious PITA and my wife had to help as I lowered the pieces from the roof.

Conclusion:

So far so good. I can actually heat the house while taking a shower, having a guest use another shower and running laundry. My only limitation is how much water I can get in to the house from the service! That is the next and final plumbing task to tackle.

Dave Turpin
26th May 2012, 22:16
Update: Here are more images of the system. I have now installed the tempering valve and the air seperator for the air handler:

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/DSCN2934.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/DSCN2935.jpg

What I can't wrap my head around is how this thing removes air without letting water out under pressure.... But it works.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/DSCN2936.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/DSCN2937.jpg

Some images of the mechanical stuff.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb21/bpestilence/DSCN2938.jpg

The tempering valve. Now the house heat is much warmer, but I don't burn myself or my family.

Rob Beckers
27th May 2012, 07:02
Thanks for the update Dave! It's very interesting to see.

Regarding 'installed' price if a plumber handled this: At the I asked 3 companies for a quote to install a Rinnai (http://www.greenpowertalk.org/showthread.php?t=5912) on-demand water heater. The lowest quote I received was $3,200. Total cost in materials for the R94, vent kit (and additional pieces) etc. was around $1,200. I paid a plumber a few hundred to replace a section of gas pipe with the much larger diameter pipe needed for this unit, so let's say I was $1,500 in. Two of those quoting never came to look, it was all over the phone, which tells me that their prices are so inflated that no matter how difficult the job they would still turn a healthy profit. In short, I have a feeling you can double your materials cost to get to an estimated installed price if you had someone do the work.

Now, I have nothing against someone making a decent living, but some things are over the top. For a plumber it would have been an easy job to replace my tank-type heater with the Rinnai, and replacing some gas line. An easy day of work I would guess. Should that cost $1,700+? There's a markup on materials as well, adding to their income. Maybe I'm in the wrong line of work... :suspicious:

Anyway, nice job Dave, and you clearly saved yourself a bundle!

-RoB-

Dave Turpin
1st June 2012, 12:36
Yeah, plumbers are overpaid. Recently I tried to get some quotes to replace my water service connection (the only length of pipe remaining that is not copper or PEX). So, 56 feet of pipe, either trenching it out or drilling it out using a fancy new side drilling machine, and materials... The lowest quote I got was $7200.

I said screw that noise. That would be the single most expensive thing I did on the house! More expensive than remodeling the entire basement. More expensive than replacing ALL the windows in the house. More expensive than the Aircrete insulation in all the external walls! More expensive than rewiring and replumbing everything.

Penny Walters
13th June 2012, 03:54
That's awesome Dave, looks like a high profile project that you have successfully completed and saved a huge amount in the process!

Just a couple of questions, how long did it take in total to install the heater system?

Also did you buy any of your parts second hand and what condition were they in??

Dave Turpin
14th June 2012, 16:36
No, I bought most everything from Alpine Home Air Products new.

I bought most of the pre-fabbed HVAC ducting from another company, but when it came down to it I still had to make a bunch of the stuff myself.

I completed the installation in 2 days by myself. Wife helped a little.

The longest waiting period was inspections.

Penny Walters
18th June 2012, 03:28
Cool, I just took a look on their site and the prices seem pretty reasonable!

It's great that you were able to make a lot of it yourself and also that you were able to fit the whole system in just 2 days.

Hats off to you!