Start with permits

[Peter Klaassen]

I am trying to put up a 3.5 kW Windspot turbine in Prince Edward County. There are many hoops to jump through because of the turbine size. If I had planned to put up a 3 kW turbine or smaller there would be no permits required. This wouldn't mean that one wouldn't be concerned about safety, but the cost of engineer's stamps would be less. As it is I am planning a tilt over guyed pipe tower about 80' tall. It will be fairly close to the house at the edge of a hayfield near the shore of L. Ontario. The weather station [davis Vantage VUE] has been up for over a year and shows an average of 5m/s wind speed at 3m above ground. The incentive for the wind turbine is to reduce the use of our back up generator in the winter when the solar panels are not keeping up with the load of our off grid house. I am hoping to start the foundations this week. When there is something to see I will try to post pictures.

[Chris Olson]

It will be nice to see the progress on your project.

For off-grid a wind turbine is almost a necessity unless you want to put a lot of hours on the generator. I get a lot of questions from folks that want to have a wind turbine right off the bat so they can "move off-grid". I tell them a wind turbine is the last thing you buy. The first thing you need is a good inverter, battery bank and generator - and you then have the equipment to live off-grid.

All the solar panels and wind turbine does is reduce the hours put on the generator. And if you only got one or the other, and not both, you're going to put a lot of fuel thru the generator. With generator power costing in the neighborhood of 80-90 cents/kWh it doesn't take long to pay for a $10,000 wind turbine.
--
Chris

[Rob Beckers]

Peter, I feel your permitting pain! :ballchain: I'm dealing with the municipality every day for the PV projects we do. You wouldn't believe the stuff they come up with (and every time there's a new surprise)...

Chris, I wonder, with the price of PV so low there comes a point where investing the money that would have gone into a wind turbine into more PV makes sense. I know wind and sun tend to be complementary, but even in winter during a period of stormy weather there's light outside. My PV array produces about half of peak power when the sky is simply overcast. During rain it depends on how dark it is, but usually there's some. I suppose one would have to increase the battery bank size as well, to be able to ride out the lean solar periods.

Don't get me wrong, I like spinning wind turbines much more than PV. Watching the grass grow is more interesting than watching PV make electricity... :faint2: But, the other side of that equation is that wind turbines are (still) pretty problematic. They break, they are expensive, they annoy the neighbors etc.

Over here the worst month of the year (November) is still 41% of the solar resource of the best month. A seasonably-adjustable rack would do quite nicely in winter.

-RoB-

[Chris Olson]

Chris, I wonder, with the price of PV so low there comes a point where investing the money that would have gone into a wind turbine into more PV makes sense.

That's a call that the individual would have to make, and I know I could never recommend that to a customer. Where we live, with an ideal tilt angle and an open solar window 1 kW of PV should produce about 55 kWh per month in Nov/Dec

However, looking at my own logs from 2010 we only got 19.6 kWh/kW of installed capacity in December 2009, 21.1 kWh/kW in January, 2010, 17.0 kWh/kW in Feb 2010.

During December our wind turbines generated 782.5 kWh, 1,001.2 kWh in January and 637.8 kWh in Feb 2010. Unfortunately I didn't log generator hours back then. But I know that our home uses 20-25 kWh/day and without our wind power, and just depending on solar, the generator would have to run constantly in the winter to keep the batteries up, even with ridiculous amounts of solar power installed.

So I recommend based on my own experience, and living off-grid for almost a decade sort of forges what works and what doesn't.
--
Chris

[Ian poyntz]

Interesting reading your posts on permits and solar vs. wind. I have been going back and forth between more solar or wind, but both present a problem for me. My house is on a 5 acre private island in the middle of a lake on Vancouver Island, BC. The house is set back 200 ft. in all directions in the middle of a fir/cedar forest with trees up to 130 ft.. In summer the sun is high enough to clear the tops of the trees for 6 hours a day. In winter solar panels are behind a barrier of trees and do nothing. I have a large 48v battery bank (24 x 2v Sorrette KS-25) and a 12kw Denyo silent diesel generator, but it runs every 5 days for 12 hrs. when I am NOT there and much more when I am there. Problem: I can do a floating solar array of 21 x 240watt panels on a dock and get winter 'sun' (49 degrees North Latitude) or try to erect a tower on the edge of the island at about a 40 ft. height. The lake has lots of wind. Issues there are: will the municipality let me and I haven't been able to discover how much force is on a SouthWest Wind Whisper 500 - 3kw turbine to understand how to support it at the waters edge. If I use a guyed system then I some guys would be to concrete blocks in the water. If guyed lowering the turbine to service it may be impossible or difficult at best.

Ideas?

[Chris Olson]

From my experience doing Canadian wind installations the minister of the lake is going to have some issues with putting guy anchors in the water for a land-based tower. I doubt that will happen. You're not going to get much wind on a 40 foot tower either, even over open water.

One off-grid island on The Lake of The Woods has Jacobs turbine that has been there for over 30 years surrounded by 100 ft firs, and it is on a 160 foot free-standing tower.

That turbine has water for 5 miles in every direction and it works good - but placing a turbine on a short tower with tall trees in the background will severely limit its effectiveness. You need to be at least 30 feet above the treetops, and 60 feet is better. You'd only be able to use wind from one direction across the lake, and when the wind has to flow over or around the edge of the trees the turbulence would be too severe for an effective wind installation.

Rule of thumb when installing wind turbines - moderate "clean" wind with no turbulence will create double the power that "lots of wind" will in a turbulent location.

It's cheap to put up a logging anemometer on a 40 foot tower where you'd put the turbine and monitor the Wind Run on several good wind days to see what you get. If the Wind Run isn't at least 220 miles per day, it's not worth putting a turbine up.
--
Chris

[Ian poyntz]

Ask and yee shall receive!

Thank you for your input. Your info confirmed a few things for me, but I need to learn much more about a free standing 160ft. tower which brings me back to the question of how much force is on a wind turbine. Unless the free standing tower is a huge lattice tower then the force can't be much. I would love to erect a tall tower at the back of the house, but need to understand what kind of forces are involved to contemplate such a tower. Can you buy lattice tower kits of that height or was this simply a 8" steel pipe set deep in rock? Are there still height issues to contend with with the municipality?

Many thanks for the info. Ian

[Chris Olson]

The swept area loading for a wind turbine is given by it's flat plate loading at the survival wind speed you need, times the rotor's Cp, times the drag coefficient for the rotor and machine structure. And this is only for the turbine itself - loading on the tower structure also has to be considered, and whether or not your area will have icing conditions.

While a monopole type free-standing tower is doable, a lattice-type like this 80 footer I put up in August will more than likely be the choice:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DezBCpc8L3U/UAqWga5_VtI/AAAAAAAAGZ8/AUNIUEcBzPs/s640/100_1904.JPG

In my experience with Canadian authorities, height limitations aren't an issue unless the structure is a possible danger to other people (in other words in a populated area). You can buy 160 foot lattice towers from Rohn, and there are a lot of used SSV's laying around that you could probably get cheap. The downside is that you will need a crane out there on the island to put it up, as well as a way to haul lots of redi-mix concrete (approximately 80 yards in the foundation of a 160 foot Rohn SSV).

The one I mentioned earlier that's on The Lake of The Woods in Ontario was hauled on an ice road to the island in the winter time.
--
Chris

[Peter Klaassen]

I have not made much progress. The local engineering outfit is working on foundation plans for about $1500. As the turbine is over 3 kW the requirement is to have Ontario Engineering stamped plans. I will be putting in 5 foundations/anchors for the tower - one of the challenges is to dig into our rock here. With about 18 inches of soil and then limestone and shale it will take a machine to do the work. I hope to have the plans by next week and then seek the approval of the building inspector. A local excavator estimates a couple of hours to dig the holes. Having the bases in before freeze up is the goal for now.

I would suggest that anyone considering a turbine look at the whole package and where you can source the various components before starting on the turbine. I had some serious expenses for towers looking me in the face. The tower is as big an expense as the turbine if not more. A tower 160 ft tall is going to cost serious money.
Pete

[Ralph Day]

Pete,
Have you costed out having core drilling done instead of excavator digging? I asked about that when I put up my turbine tower, but it wasn't really necessary. We went with just the expansion anchors (not the stress that your 3kw unit would endure).

With a core drilled hole you could go to whatever depth you need through shale and into solid rock if it's there. The engineering would calculate not just the weight of the concrete in the piling, but also the co-efficient of friction of the concrete against the surrounding rock.

It might be cheaper, and then with the core drilling you end up with a bunch of nice round slabs of limestone for garden pathways:laugh:

Ralph

[Peter Klaassen]

I have 5 holes about 2.5 ft deep now with a dilemma on how to proceed. I am considering a machine to break rock to the planned 4 ft depth. It will take an engineer with the proper expertise to advise the correct way forward. I will do what is necessary to be assured that the tower will stay up.

[Ralph Day]

A hammering hi-hoe will certainly do the work, but probably at around $200 per hour or so. A local pole line construction outfit from the Tyendinega reserve excavated for our power poles by drilling and blasting in small increments, just big enough for the poles. I was on-site and didn't even know/hear they'd been blasting. Just dug out the shards with a tractor backhoe. Something to consider, there's lots of pole-line outfits in the Quinte area.

Good luck

Ralph

[Peter Klaassen]

The holes are completed and rebar cages and grates are in place. I had planned to use circular forms for the centre and hoist foundations but in the end I just filled the two holes to ground level. This was costly in cement but simpler in practice. Prior to pouring concrete the soil engineer looked at the arrangement to be sure the rock would support the foundations.

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The anchor bases are about 4 x 5 x 2 feet and are 4 feet below grade. The mast base and the hoist base are big cement blocks which I hope the frost doesn't shift. They are to the same depth. A mix truck came to pour the concrete - I think it was about 8 yards all together- a ding to the cheque book any way.

This was done last fall and of course things stopped again for the winter. Work seems to interfere with my projects.

[Peter Klaassen]

The mast is made of 6 inch structural tubes. The ends are mated with pipe flanges and 8 - 3/4 inch bolts. There are 4 sections 21 feet long. The gin pole is 32 feet long. Wire guys are 1/2 inch and 5/16 inch galvanized wire rope with wire core. The upper guy is attached with a collar and the lower guy is bolted to plates at the second flange up.

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The power line is in conduit in a trench about 90 metres from the house. Digging in the County means lots of rocks. I used a mini excavator to do the work. It was about $300 / day and was really the only option for this much trench.

[Peter Klaassen]

The Windspot has a mechanical blade feathering arrangement. It was this and the three blade design that sold me on this turbine. I got it from Newfound Energies in NFLD. for about $10,000. I hope it will last the 20 years they claim. It includes a PWM charge controller, a dump load air heater and disconnect switch/electric brake. It is supposed to be quiet due to the 250 max rpm. They claim 43 dB at 8 m/s wind.


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[Peter Klaassen]

The mast is supported by wires and turnbuckles. The cost of the rigging was almost the same as the mast itself. I used Crosby parts for the hardware, rather than Chinese hardware. From work I was familiar with this equipment - it is used on ships. I made flemish splices in one end of the wire and secured this with bulldog grips. The other end was turned back on itself and secured with bulldog grips. The bolts and grips throughout the construction were torqued to required levels with the proper torque wrench. The shackles were moused (secured) with wire or zip ties. We'll see how well the plastic holds up to weathering.

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There is a grounding wire showing at the base of the mast. I have a number of ground wires around the tower connecting all the anchors and the tower base. These were installed according to Rob's article about grounding. I have also installed the lightning arrestors from Midnight Solar at the inverters AC and DC sides

The bases for hoisting and the tower are 1/2 inch steel. The mounting bolts are 1 inch and the pivot bolts are 3/4 inch. It all seems to be holding well but it has not really been tested yet. The winds have been pretty light since the turbine went up. Tomorrow we are forecast to have 60km/h gusts so that should stretch things a little. The Trenton Airforce Base is our nearest weather recording station. The strongest wind they have recorded is over 100 km/h.

[Cor van Houtum]

hello Peter
strange regulations you have

the windspot 1500 is exact the same machine as the 3.5
all measurements and sizes are the same
only the generator insite is a smaller one

does that mean that this turbine has not the building regulation ?
how can they see this ?

cor

[Peter Klaassen]

Hi Cor,
The building code is based on power production rather than physical size I guess. When I talked to them they asked what size the turbine was and I gave them the kW without knowing the 3 kW limit. My own fault I guess.
It has been through some good winds this fall. We were seeing 60 kts in some storms this fall and all seems to be good. There are some resonances in the tower at certain RPM's but it is quietly spinning away making power most of the time. It is saving generator run time at least.
Pete

[Peter Klaassen]

To add to the story,
The turbine has had a "catastrophic decommissioning" to use Mr. Day's phrase. A windy night with the winds from the south broke off 2 blades. One was broken at the casting and this makes things difficult for repairs. The wind was about 50 knots and hitting the turbine after going over the house (40 ft. height). I have been waiting for spare parts to get things back in operation. According to the Flexnet DC the peak power from the turbine that night was around 5700 W. It it supposed to be a 3.5 kW turbine but I have seen it above this in the past but more around 4200 W. I am wondering if there are other Windspots out there that have had blades break and what to do to prevent this? I read Mr. van Houtum's entries about putting on the brakes. A dilemma for me because of the unknown cause of this failure. Are wooden blades less likely to fail? I have the one blade left - I wonder if I should load it at the tip until it fails and then make some that are stronger? I still need a blade holder though and maybe they need to be stronger too. Who knows if the blade broke first or the blade holder.
For now the generator is getting more of a work out to keep the lights on.


some photos of the destruction:1171;

[Cor van Houtum]

Hello Peter,
My guess is that the mounting broke first but not at once
the pitch controll did not work anymore because the tork should be about the same on all three blades and the speed went up to a much to high level.
maybe the broken blade holder came off together with the blade and hit the two other blades.

Please make some better photo;s of the hand that holds the blade.
Sonkyo made a change in the design of this hand.
they made a stronger version in about 2013
So when you are sure this is the old version then it is a known problem

the old versions are welded
the new version is thicker and is is made of one piece of metal.

the turbine should have 5 years of warranty

the spinner that you like so mutch (bronze brass spinner) is also replaced in time
this one breaks legs and gets deformed.
after deforming the pich is changed and the turbine starts to spin to fast
the new one is stanless steel

the best sollution for your repair is to replace the complete pitch controll together with new blades
make sure you also replace the black plate thats mounts the generator main shaft.
also here are changes made in the front ring

test if you have play on the main shaft spline by holding the pitch controll with both hands and rock it back and in the turning direction
there should not be any play or sound

see photo for the new thicker (latest) Blade mount from Sonkyo
in photo 1 you see the newer version in photo 3 the old version
In photo 3 you also see some repair work on the spinner
This is NOT THE ORIGINAL WAY THE SPINNER IS MADE TODAY BUT A REPAIR ON A DEFORMED OLD SPINNER
and in photo 2 you see a broken leg in the old spinner

i also attached foto's of the new pro version of ENAIR
You see that the blade mounting has changed in the pro version
Enair is the real developer of the windspot

[Peter Klaassen]

Hello Cor and thanks for your input/advice. I looked at the manufacture date of the Windspot and it is 6/11 on the nameplate inside the main casting. The blade mount is a casting is not welded up, but it is earlier than you mentioned. The hub is also loose on the generator shaft. I guess taking that off won't make it worse and it will be necessary any way. I appreciate the information about upgrades that Windspot has made and I'll be sure to look for these parts. Do you have pictures of the new hub set up? These photos are of the remaining blade mounts and the governor for pitch control. It still seems to move without binding but how does one know if the torque setting hasn't changed?
Peter

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[Peter Klaassen]

I posted, Cor without looking at the forum first, just looked at the e-mail. Thanks for the photos!
Pete

[Cor van Houtum]

is the shift shaft welded ? is this ever been broken ?
see picture 1
picture 2 is one of mine you see here no weld


and when the brass legs are not in a 90 degrees angle anymore then the contra weights (black poles) have to go farther out
to turn the blade in stall position
this makes the blades turn faster

[Peter Klaassen]

Hi Cor,
The picture you noted has only a build up of grease. As far as I can tell there is no binding in the pitch control, as I can move the pitch bars by hand and it all seems smooth. I am not sure about the torque required to move the pitch. As you say if it was more than originally intended then the rpm's would be higher and more kW produced. When this failure occurred it was -10 celcius or so.
Pete

[Cor van Houtum]

maybe contact Marek klon
he is also on this forum and he put a windspot in the artic
maybe he has expierence with deep temperatures and windspot

Cor

[Peter Klaassen]

I have not had any help from Windspot so I am going ahead with the local expert who used to make wind turbines. I am wondering if anyone has taken apart a ginlong pmg 3500 generator? I have taken it off the yaw housing/mechanism but it seems reluctant to open up the case. Is there a trick to it? The allen bolts all came out easily but no movement on the face plate. I need to take the rotor out to have a new keyway machined to match a new hub plate. It was looseness in the hub plate bolt that allowed movement between the rotor shaft and the hub plate causing deformation in the key and keyway on the rotor shaft.
In the future I will be stopping the turbine if there is any unidentified sound from the machine. This is mentioned in the manual, but I did not follow the instructions.
Cor van Houtum: Do you have access to more detailed info from Windspot that you can share? Your previous photos have been informative. Could one get upgrades to the weak part of the older models? I am thinking of the old brass yoke that links the pitch on the three blades.
thanks,
Pete Klaassen

[Rob Beckers]

Peter, just send a message to Ginlong. There should be a support E-mail address on their site. They've always been good at replying promptly when I asked questions.

-RoB-

[Cor van Houtum]

Hello Peter,
After a struggle of about half a year we managed to repair the turbine
We have the precise same problem with the generator connection to the plate
After some interesting contacts and conversations we have found the manufacturer
and first party ,

I must say they helped me very good , and also the communication is fine.

Enair in spain is the original production facillity of the windspot

Try to contact them Salvatore D'Amato [sdamato@enair.es]

I shipped the broken turbine to spain and they have repaired it like brand new.
maybe they have also connections in your country ?
always ask.

kind regards

Cor

[Peter Klaassen]

Hi Rob,
Thanks for the suggestion. I will give them a try.
Pete

[Peter Klaassen]

Thanks for the contact info Cor I will see if he can help me directly.
Pete