Hi. Anyone here selling energy back to Grid?

[Making money off the Grid]

Hi. New to forum and looking forward to hearing the good, the bad, and the ugly about energy.

I recently moved to a new area, where the Utility Company has a energy buyback program. Anyone here selling energy back to the grid? I have plans to upgrade my 7,500 watt, wind and solar off grid system to a 17kW, wind, solar, and hydro system that will tie to the grid. Thanks to some professional engineering design help, this system will be capable of producing energy 24 hours. So there would be plenty to send back to the grid. I read about a Utility Company paying $.12 per kWH sent back to the grid. So if my math is correct.
17,000 watts /1000=17, taking 17 multiple it by the number of hours producing, 24 (potentially)= 408 kWH daily. We use between 30kWH to 40kWH on average daily. So if I can produce 408kWH but only use 40kWH, that leaves me with 368kWH to feed the grid. 368kWH*$.12=$44.16/day to me on top of not paying for what I used for the day.

Please let me know what you think about your Utilities energy buyback program.
Thanks.

[Shawn tal]

Hi. New to forum and looking forward to hearing the good, the bad, and the ugly about energy.

I recently moved to a new area, where the Utility Company has a energy buyback program. Anyone here selling energy back to the grid? I have plans to upgrade my 7,500 watt, wind and solar off grid system to a 17kW, wind, solar, and hydro system that will tie to the grid. Thanks to some professional engineering design help, this system will be capable of producing energy 24 hours. So there would be plenty to send back to the grid. I read about a Utility Company paying $.12 per kWH sent back to the grid. So if my math is correct.
17,000 watts /1000=17, taking 17 multiple it by the number of hours producing, 24 (potentially)= 408 kWH daily. We use between 30kWH to 40kWH on average daily. So if I can produce 408kWH but only use 40kWH, that leaves me with 368kWH to feed the grid. 368kWH*$.12=$44.16/day to me on top of not paying for what I used for the day.

Please let me know what you think about your Utilities energy buyback program.
Thanks.

Following...

[Rob Beckers]

Hi. New to forum and looking forward to hearing the good, the bad, and the ugly about energy.

I recently moved to a new area, where the Utility Company has a energy buyback program. Anyone here selling energy back to the grid? I have plans to upgrade my 7,500 watt, wind and solar off grid system to a 17kW, wind, solar, and hydro system that will tie to the grid. Thanks to some professional engineering design help, this system will be capable of producing energy 24 hours. So there would be plenty to send back to the grid. I read about a Utility Company paying $.12 per kWH sent back to the grid. So if my math is correct.
17,000 watts /1000=17, taking 17 multiple it by the number of hours producing, 24 (potentially)= 408 kWH daily. We use between 30kWH to 40kWH on average daily. So if I can produce 408kWH but only use 40kWH, that leaves me with 368kWH to feed the grid. 368kWH*$.12=$44.16/day to me on top of not paying for what I used for the day.

Please let me know what you think about your Utilities energy buyback program.
Thanks.

Welcome to the forum!
As you no doubt read during the signup process we go by first/last name on this form. I strongly doubt your mommy named you "Making Money". If you let let me know your name I can change your account.

Just to make sure you are not counting yourself rich: Neither wind nor solar produce rated output 24x7. Hydro can, sometimes, depending on its design. Instead, for wind the annual average wind speed at hub height is used to calculate energy production, for solar it is sun-hours (check out pvwatts.nrel.gov, it does the heavy lifting for you).

The utility here had feed-in-tariffs, those came to an end for new contracts two years ago. I have a little 6.5kW one on my house, paying $0.802 per kWh for 20 years, and a 100kW one at the business building paying $0.345 per kWh. Of course, at the time that I built them solar PV was a heck of a lot more expensive than it is now.

-RoB-

[Making money off the Grid]

First, thank you for operating a forum such as this one. I apologize for the username, but I have been a victim of identity theft and sceptical about using my name. If this means that you have to remove my account, Sir do as you must.

To your comments about solar and wind not producing 24 hours a day, you are correct in a traditional since. Most hybrid systems are only hybrid in name tied together by a charge controller. So if the sun shining and the wind is blowing then you have a hybrid system. Yes hydro-electric systems have the best potential to produce 24 hours a day, so I started there.

I don't have a natural water source on my property so I went outside the box, or inside the box in this concept. I built a tank with a removable lid, then added a solar powered water pump with its own battery bank. It pumps 10,000gph, has adjustable flow rate, and can run 24 hours a day. Atop the tank lid, I built stainless steel housing for water wheels to generate power. I ran flexible pipe to each housing, then attached 2, 1/8" tip nozzles to each housing for pressure turning the wheels. The wheels are actually wind turbines, with 8" pelton wheel attachments which is what's generating energy. The setup is the key.

In short, I use solar to power a water pump, the pump drives the wind turbines, and the turbines generate energy to the battery bank. 24 hours a day. The issue is my system technically isn't a solar system so I can't participate in the energy buyback program per the Utility Company.

[Bill von]

I recently moved to a new area, where the Utility Company has a energy buyback program. Anyone here selling energy back to the grid?
Yes. We often end up with a little excess generation at the end of the year. We get 3 to 5 cents/kwhr.
I have plans to upgrade my 7,500 watt, wind and solar off grid system to a 17kW, wind, solar, and hydro system that will tie to the grid. Thanks to some professional engineering design help, this system will be capable of producing energy 24 hours.
Not at full power it won't.
So there would be plenty to send back to the grid. I read about a Utility Company paying $.12 per kWH sent back to the grid.
That's unusual. Usually they pay avoided cost, not retail cost.
17,000 watts /1000=17, taking 17 multiple it by the number of hours producing, 24 (potentially)= 408 kWH daily.
Nope. Not the case unless you are 100% hydro generation. If it's mostly solar/wind, divide that by 4 or 5.

[Bill von]

I don't have a natural water source on my property so I went outside the box, or inside the box in this concept. I built a tank with a removable lid, then added a solar powered water pump with its own battery bank. It pumps 10,000gph, has adjustable flow rate, and can run 24 hours a day. Atop the tank lid, I built stainless steel housing for water wheels to generate power. I ran flexible pipe to each housing, then attached 2, 1/8" tip nozzles to each housing for pressure turning the wheels. The wheels are actually wind turbines, with 8" pelton wheel attachments which is what's generating energy. The setup is the key.

In short, I use solar to power a water pump, the pump drives the wind turbines, and the turbines generate energy to the battery bank. 24 hours a day. The issue is my system technically isn't a solar system so I can't participate in the energy buyback program per the Utility Company.

Nope. If you use solar to drive the pump, and the pump drives the Pelton wheel, it still shuts down when the sun goes down. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

If you use batteries charged by the solar array to power the pump, then you can either pump water into a Pelton wheel/generator and lose at least 50% of the energy in the process, or use the batteries to provide your power directly (and twice as efficiently.) Using the energy directly is at least 4x cheaper. Still not as cheap as grid power, since battery depreciation costs more than the power you don't need.

However, if you are independently wealthy and don't mind spending a lot of money, a system like yours could be a fun hobby.

[Making money off the Grid]

Nope. If you use solar to drive the pump, and the pump drives the Pelton wheel, it still shuts down when the sun goes down. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

If you use batteries charged by the solar array to power the pump, then you can either pump water into a Pelton wheel/generator and lose at least 50% of the energy in the process, or use the batteries to provide your power directly (and twice as efficiently.) Using the energy directly is at least 4x cheaper. Still not as cheap as grid power, since battery depreciation costs more than the power you don't need.

However, if you are independently wealthy and don't mind spending a lot of money, a system like yours could be a fun hobby.

Hey, I'm not sure why you assume my pump shuts down at night. That's what the battery bank with the solar array is for. I've ran this pump 24/7 for 7 months in my pond on my last property. I know it doesn't shut down, unless I shut it down. It's 2.4kW of solar, with a 2,400 watt, 100amp charge controller, 200aH battery bank, and a 6k watt pure sine inverter. The pump is a AP10000, ac powered. I will admit I did burn up a inverter, but wasn't as good of quality as the one I have now. So it's a off grid solar system independent from the rest of the system. Only the water connects the systems. The tank setup allows me to house up to 10 wind turbines each level on the top. I now have 8, 12v 2,000 watts turbines, 4 10,000watts 100 amp charge controllers, 4 200aH battery banks, and 4 6k watts inverters. With other components needed for a safe and stable system, I have about $8200 in it. This includes the solar setup. I guess I shouldn't call it a system, it's 5 systems tied together by water. Why build this way? Simplicity. Aside from the solar array, they are all almost the same. Two inverters are 120vac, the other two are 240vac output. 2 turbines in parallel, 1 controller, 2 6v 200aH AGM batteries in series, and a 12v pure sine wave inverter. Some might say just build a 48v system. Too much trouble if a component fails, most systems go down. I have more options this way to keep up and running. My goal isn't necessarily to be cheaper than the grid but not to need it. I feel good about the results I'm getting with the money I spent. Less than $.50 a watt for 17kW. My neighbor and now a friend of mine, spent over $27k on 9.6kW grid tie system. After one hurricane season later he purchased a Catepillar 8kW diesel powered backup generator. Since I can't grid tie, only my central heat and air and electric dryer is still grid wired. The utility company won't allow me to put the 4 street lights on the property on solar. I bought five energy efficient window units, put in a solar powered well pump, and unplugged my dryer until winter. Fireplaces will cover heating. I'm not sure what evergy loss you refer to Mr. Von but all my components are hitting parameter specifications. The only difference I notice now verses 3 weeks ago is the window units. I appreciate your comments, this seems to be a good forum.

[Rob Beckers]

So Mr/Mrs Making, if I understand right solar PV is at the basis of your energy production. It pumps water, water runs turbines, turbines charge batteries. Correct?

Why not forego all the conversion losses and charge batteries directly from solar PV? You're using water and potential energy (height) as an energy storage medium. Batteries are in themselves an energy storage medium already.

-RoB-

[Making money off the Grid]

Mr. Beckers, it's Mr. Wood. I have built the system to not need the sun. Even as solar prices continue to come down in price, the efficiency of PV panels has barely improved. So I just used the setup for this project because I already had it. There is only 2' of head I had to compensate for, and with this particular pump it still pumps over 8800gph at that height. It turned the turbines at over 4000 rpms, which is to much as I found out the hard way. I burned a turbine up already. So now I have them running at about 2400 rpms, which is producing about 12 amps each. Anyways, like I said I don't need the sun anymore, so the solar array is a mute point. I never needed it for the setup because the pump is 120vac. Once I got everything up and running, with all battery banks charged, I just plugged the pump into one my other inverters. So now I'm looking for something else to do with the solar array.

So Mr. Beckers, how do the energy rates today compare to the rates you got 25 years ago in your area when you set up your two grid tie systems?

[Bill von]

Hey, I'm not sure why you assume my pump shuts down at night. That's what the battery bank with the solar array is for.
Then why not use the battery bank to provide power, instead of the Rube Goldberg contraption? You'll get a lot more energy.
Some might say just build a 48v system. Too much trouble if a component fails, most systems go down. I have more options this way to keep up and running.
You get the same flexibility with multiple DC coupled systems.
My goal isn't necessarily to be cheaper than the grid but not to need it.
Like I said, if you don't care about cost, it could be a fun hobby.
My neighbor and now a friend of mine, spent over $27k on 9.6kW grid tie system. After one hurricane season later he purchased a Catepillar 8kW diesel powered backup generator.
Right. For most grid tie systems, a generator is the cheapest/most reliable backup.
I'm not sure what evergy loss you refer to Mr. Von but all my components are hitting parameter specifications.
You go solar -> battery -> inverter -> pump -> water turbine -> DC -> battery -> inverter. Let's assume the pump is 60% efficient, the water turbine is 60% efficient and the inverter is 95% efficient. Adding all those extra steps is 34% efficient. So you are throwing away 65% of your energy in motor, generator, frictional and conversion losses.

[Making money off the Grid]

The system is up and running. I understand all of what's been said by you two gentlemen, but if the sun ever stops shining and the wind stops blowing and rivers dry up, I have power. I initially thought about grid tie but that wasn't an option so this is where I went with it. I wasn't trying to debate my system. I was doing it anyway, so it's a mute point on your end Sir. You guys seem to have a great deal of experience based on your comments, and I appreciate that. As of a few days ago, I can live in a cave underground and have power, even if it's not as efficient as it could be. I was just inquiring about grid tie energy buyback programs. Thank you.