Bicycles

[Jay Walter]

Anyone here into human power? I'm currently into some bicycle experiments but my interests are really about any human power. I'd like to publish my findings and apply them to things like camp generators, and other things not specifically transportation.

Did you know:

There is a company that makes a pedal power fork lift?

The world speed record for unassisted human powered vehicles is about 90 mph?

The world record for the fastest assisted bicycle (wind block vehicle) is 183 mph?

I'm trying to redesign the human powered drive. My last effort was about a 50% increase. That's not yet verified. My latest effort to verify the increase left me to buy two more bicycles. One is control and the other is my conversion. I got them via UPS yesterday. I put one together and pedaled into the street. Instantly the derailleur got sucked into the spokes. Manufacturer defect.

Always delays. I'm waiting to hear back from the manufacturer.

I'll tell you my dream. It's to get this drive as efficient as I can and then offer it in one-off pedal cars, most resembling classic cars. Have a favorite car? I'll duplicate it at 3/5 size and put pedals on it.

I think I can get a lot more power out of leg force, but it's the bodies that break the wind that will make the cars a practical alternative to motorized personal transit.

A velomobile (fully fared recumbent, usually a trike) has a speed of about 30 mph because of streamlining. That is probably by a practiced cyclist, but not particularly athletic. Bicycle wind resistance triples when merely doubling speed, so streamlined is a serious factor.

A note on recumbents: you will hear the term "tadpole trike." That's in reference to one wheel rear and two forward— skinny tail and wide head.

Recumbents, open body, have less wind facing so they ride easier and go faster than traditional uprights. But get to a hill and all your advantage goes to pot. I'm hoping to change that.

I think my drive will allow for a bodied pedal car to comfortably reach 40 mph. But my target is urban travel with little pedal cars that will comfortably do 25 mph with two kids and bags of groceries.

I don't know if I'll ever get there. So many delays. But it's fun just doing the experiments.

If you have an interest in human power, well, me too. Let me hear what's on your mind.

[Joe Blake]

Hi Jay, and welcome to Green Power Talk.

I've been interested in human power since the early '70s. I've created a few things you might be interested in.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-z24IwyWzxng/W_iPeMFp17I/AAAAAAAAAE4/nTD4TAIitsEbtI1o3tOITxFhr0fSwqbDgCLcBGAs/s1600/P2190002.JPG

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V7DeduVZJxo/XK_4YTcxAYI/AAAAAAAAAJc/jEJ9YKtnIy4nb6P_BWmWP4frsheBBnaDQCLcBGAs/s1600/forsale02.jpg

I also used an old recumbent bicycle on a stand to generate power to watch TV and get exercise.

All three vehicles are made by Greenspeed.

Keep up with the good work, mate.

[Jay Walter]

*Tries to read previous post with Aussie accent*

Those look like fun. Do you have any idea how much energy you save with the shroud vs no shroud?

I had a small motorcycle once. When I added a windshield my max speed went up 10 miles per hour. Wind is killer, even at bicycle speeds.

How many annual miles do you rack up on those?

I had an upright I'd ride regularly. I don't know my precise annual miles but I calculated I'd put 30,000 miles on that bike in about twenty years. I've never been a bicycle guy. I just rode the one I had, bargain store bargain bike. But for a few years I was riding 15 miles per day. Not a lot, but I only rode for an hour, so that was pushing pretty hard for a guy in his 60s. I had spinal surgery in 2013 and was never able to go more than 2 miles at a time after that. All my ails keep pushing me to a trike, but I've never ridden one.

I'm not in a hurry to ride again. It used to be I'd hop on the bike and ride out my drive and visit any number of places. I like riding at night. My life now, I live in the mountains, a few skinny roads that don't go anywhere before twenty miles or so. And there are far too many memorial crosses for those that braved riding these hills. Cars speed at 45 to 60 mph on them. They'll come upon a cycler and not have any warning. I'd have to truck the bike 50 miles to safely ride anyplace interesting.


I see those solar cells. I'll give you a tip. Solar cells reflect in the range of 80% of the light that hits them. Try putting the cells at 90° to each other.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

The idea is reflected light will then strike the opposing cell. I don't know if it will actually increase voltage, but in the least you'll get more cells in a smaller space. You might make them accordion so they could be pulled flat when not moving, that is if the reflected light doesn't increase output and you find that you need the power.

Could you let me know the results if you try it? This is something I've wanted to try, but never got around to it.

I have a lot of those "never gotten to" projects. I used to expect to capitalize on them, but now, I'll be lucky to live long enough to get this bike drive finished.

I'll have some trike build questions in the future, if you don't mind helping me build mine… when I get that far.

Happy trails.

[Joe Blake]

Hi Jay.

Just a quick response, I'll get back later with details that you were asking about.

If you have problems with your back and getting down low, have you heard of the Greenspeed Anura?

https://greenspeed-trikes.com/trikes/anura/

https://greenspeed-trikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/4F5A0081-1024x425.jpg

Can even be fitted with a motor if needed. Has a nice approach to having two driven wheels and cornering.

This is the late Ian Sims, creator of Greenspeed. Met him many years ago. Great guy.

https://bicycleman.com/wp-content/uploads/Greenspeed-trikes-Anura-Frog-delta-sm.jpg

[Jay Walter]

The tadpole trike is more stable in cornering. My reflexes are really slow any more so having to counter a misjudged curve, I'm better off with the two wheels forward.

I don't have issues with sitting low. My problem is proprioception disorder (https://www.webmd.com/brain/what-is-proprioception). I often have to visualize how to move because my brain no longer gets full information of my position. On a bicycle everything is where it needs to be. I don't have to think about moving. But I don't have quick enough muscle function to pull myself out of a bank. Bicycles are cheap and I'd stay with them if I felt safe on them.

I used to freeze in place. I couldn't move again until I visualized moving a limb, and then I could get the motors running again. That was 20 years ago. I'm a lot better now, but still not up to normal. I don't expect I ever will be. As I get older I want my bikes to suit my failing physical ability.

My handicap bike design is an upright, but three wheeled with two wheels forward. There are already those. My advance is purely drive related. Wheels forward is only about stability.

But I want my trike for the faster speeds and lower wind resistance. My trike design has not progressed further than a mockup for dimensions and refining the plans. On a trike, sitting with feet out front, I'm fine on the force foot, but the lax foot falls because there is nothing under it. (I found this out on my mock up) I have to think to keep it on the pedal, but then the other foot stops and it falls. I could tie my feet in but that's more effort. I have a resolve for the foot falling. I just haven't gotten there yet.

I want to market my upright trike with my drive. Easy. Stable. It could be built to race, but my interest is offering safety for those that might be too frail for a regular bike.

My drive is duel cam (two chains, one each side) with a double leverage advantage. It reduces kinetic cost. There is a variable aspect to it. If I can automate that I can eliminate gear clusters. Lots to do yet.

Your trikes are so hard to pedal up hill because the kinetic cost increases when you go up a grade. Kinetic cost means those sections of the stroke that you can't input force. The arc length of dead zones get bigger going up hill. Even less of your stroke is applying force.

When you aren't speeding up you are slowing down. That loss has to be made up to keep the same speed. It takes twice the effort to catch up than it does if you don't have to catch up. You don't notice it unless you've pulled a trailer with a bicycle. It bumps. Sometimes the bike pulls. Sometimes the trailer pushes. That's kinetic cost.

If you never lost any kinetic energy then you'd never need to pedal, like an asteroid in space. They don't need applied force to keep going. So my drive design is trying to keep as much kinetic energy as it can.

My trike is what I call a wishbone frame. It has advantages over standard trikes. If I can find the money I can produce it alongside my handicap model. There are other unique changes that will be instantly noticeable, but I don't want to give away everything. :blink1:

It's come down to the money currently. I don't have any. Once I build a working prototype I can fundraise.

Welcome to my dilemma.

[Joe Blake]

The fairing is not particularly heavy (probably about 1 kg with mounting hardware) and doesn't add much strain climbing a longish hill. On the flat it can add about 2-3 km/h (depending on wind direction) but going DOWN hill it'll probably add about 10 km/h. This video shows me descending a hill near home, and you'll see the speed limit is 80 km/h and I'm doing at least that (I think I topped 85 briefly.)

Bracedfairing - YouTube

It's fairly handy in the rain, keeping my legs and shoes dry, but because the seat is mesh I get a wet bum from road splash upwards.

https://t-cycle.com/en-au/products/wintr-fairing-kit

https://t-cycle.com/cdn/shop/products/WINTRzero3.jpg?v=1674160227

With climate change upon us it's getting harder to get out and ride (our summertime temperatures here can hit 44 deg Centigrade, sometimes 3-4 days in a row). I've done rides of 50-65 km in a day, with a lunch break half way. I only use the motor for getting away from the traffic lights to get across the intersection quickly, or just to give myself a bit of a rest for a few seconds. The panels on the rear are more than adequate for this purpose and if I ride to Perth (25 km each way) I start off going down that hill in the video, and finish by ascending, usually with breaks every few hundred metres to let the motor cool down (has built-in thermal protection) and me get my breath back.

Since about 2007 or so I've towed a trailer, a BoB (Beast of Burden) Yak. It has a single wheel and I named it "Puppy Dog" because will follow me anywhere. Can carry about 30 kg I believe. I've got the axle nuts for two trikes plus my mountain bicycle. (It caused me a problem with the MTB initially because it came with 29" wheels and the BoB was made for 26" - so I just took the old bike's rear wheel and put that in - however the 29" was an 8 gear cluster, whereas the 26" was 7 gear, so I had to replace the cluster. No problems now.)

https://www.croozer.com/en/shop-bob-trailer

https://images.ctfassets.net/5bcj6nwxssdi/18wUamQtC4gaV43vqyynlL/4643fb6734b9e196e21b1883fd9997e2/Bob_Yak_inkl_Bag_en_fr.web.jpg?w=510&h=510&fit=pad&fm=jpg&fl=progressive


(I see from this advert that they now sell a 29" trailer! Rats!)

As for having your foot fall out, about three years ago it happened to me and I actually ran over the left leg, flipping the trike end-over-end forwards, and I landed under the fairing. Ripped a hole in back of my right calf, which, because I'm diabetic (Type II) got infected and I was lucky to not lose that leg. I (re)fitted my toe straps and not had a problem since. I also wear shoes with "tractor" treads which actually catch on the rear of the platform pedals and help keep my feet in place.

[Ralph Day]

I see that the winter fairing was embedded Joe. At first I suddenly thought I'd missed some weather news from Oz, namely snow!

Ralph

[Joe Blake]

We've got the lot, Ralph. Bushfires to the north of New South Wales, snow to the south.

Climate change? Hah! It's just a conspiracy ... by someone or other.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-16/surprise-snow-on-nsw-towns-while-fire-threat-escalates-in-north/102982172