Related group for bio fuel Pot burner information.

[Larry Hollenberg]

HI all,

Must say this is an area I personally know nothing about.. But I am moderator of a Kerosene Heater and Stove group that deals in home pot burner heaters and controls, bail heaters, kerosene refrigerators and bail type and other heaters. In our photo section we have operating instructions for Siegler, Duo therm, Coleman oil heaters as well as the proper set up and instructions for servicing the Oil Control Vales of various brands.
This month we have begun receiving request for help from persons wishing to operate and convert their newly aquired Pot Burner type home heaters for operation on bio fuels.. Sounds like a great new opening for these simple to use, and now possibly earth friendly heaters, maybe much like corn or pellet stoves once the idea catches on. We are encouraging discussion of the topic and our knowledgeable senior members are anxious to help new persons to understand the proper hook up and operation of these heaters.

Here is the link to the group.. If you decide to join us please mention you say this on the Green Group so I can determine your not a spammer. Messages will be moderated for the first one or so till I can change the setting on your new account.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KeroseneHeaterandStoveCollector/

[Ralph Day]

WVO could only improve the smell of kerosene heaters IMO. It seemed everyone had one for power outages in the '80's, and when they were running you knew it by the smell. Maybe just my experience, but i couldn't tolerate the odour of kerosene burning for long...stoves and refrigerators as well as heaters? Ugghh!

ralph

[Larry Hollenberg]

While it is true that kerosene even of a high grade puts off fumes and odors, the discussion that I mentioned above is concerning stoves that are vented to the outdoors. They turn the fuel into a gas which burns in an enclosed heating chamber. No odors what so ever in the home. I agree even though I have long collected Oil Appliances, that a wick type heater burning in the home for long periods will taint the air with fumes that can be disagreeable to many.

[Ralph Day]

Thanks for the prompt reply Larry. It's easy to see how we can be biased against something from our past experiences. I have some friends who won't use propane (it's explosive) for camping...they use butane! It will go boom too!

Do the kerosene appliances have integrated CO sensors in case the venting is compromised (spiders, birds, wasps)?

I know in our case, we have put the money into pv, wind and genset, so refrigeration (and a freezer) are electric. I know we could use less power by having a propane or kerosene fridge, but we don't have to buy sunlight now.

I recall the little kerosene stinker (i mean heater) used a fair amount of fuel. What are the consumption figures for the modern kerosene appliances? What are their purchase costs like and how do they compare to propane and electric? Any responses on wether they'd work with Waste Veggie Oil (or biodiesel)? I know the WVO is not an option at my location for the genset because of the solidifying problem. Fat to oil is ok, but oil to fat not ok when it's in a fuel system or injector...or burner when cold.

Interesting technology and ideas.

ralp;h

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Larry,

Wouldn't kerosene, regular diesel, and bio-diesel all be very similar in molecular weight, and therefore have very similar burning requirements? I can see how straight vegetable oil is heavier, and therefore different. Possibly something along the lines of pre-heating the oil before it's vaporized, much like it's done for car diesel-conversions, would do the trick.

Watch out for side effects: Using waste vegetable oil will make the neighborhood smell like a fast-food place, make people hungry, and cause them to gain a few dozen pounds.... ;)

-RoB-

[Larry Hollenberg]

You guys I am a light weight here.. Yes I am interested in off the grid living most of my life, but have made a lot of compromises over the past few years including this thing I am typing on.. I found wind to be a nostaglic idea till the one I purchased new and never got very far off the ground self distructed. I have always liked the solar idea and have some 12 volt lines in the house that can run some lighting and other things if I choose to keep the battery charged.. But a lot of the time I don't.. I still don't have any panels.
So I am intriqued by all these ideas but by no means any kind of exert on any of these issues.
But I have always liked kerosene items and for many years only lighted and cooked, (well I still do) and had refrigeration using it. But the price has become quite high and no doubt headed even higher.. So no it is not cheap, in fact probably the highest thing you can use at the moment.. In collecting kerosene things I eyed an old Siegler heating stove made for oil at a sale, two literally old ladies had it and another slightly later Siegler in their farm home when they had a sale. Looked like new.. I was hooked to try and see how it worked. That ended up coming from the shed to the house and for a while I heated with various pot burner vaporizing type heaters. Over time, mostly through Ebay and the Coleman groups I found a few other interested parties in similar items. I started the yahoo group and it has slowly grown. I enjoy sharing my and a few other old timers knowledge with those who are seeking information on these extinct heaters. So I put up some catalogs an lots of literature on Vaporizing heaters, bail heaters, refrigerator ect. Once in a while we get inquires such as those we have begun to get from people interested in using these heaters to burn bio fuels. I admit I don't know much about that angle.. What we do do is share our thoughts on how it might need to be adapted and the necessary set ups to make these old heaters perform properly. Its amazing for instance that almost all the new people hook them up without a Barometric Damper in the pipe. They are crucial for proper draft and not loosing all your heat up the chimney.. Cleaning and adjusting the carburators as they are called, (oil control Valves in reality), is something else that is hard to get information. We have all that on line..
I hoped that since I am a member here that perhaps some others interested in this field might come over and help the new ones to us with the ins and outs of the kind of questions your proposing..
My personal hope was, not so much for my self to march off to McDonalds and try and get french fry oil to run it on, but that perhaps as things like soy diesel get more popular it might have a price edge on mideast oil, and also be more self sustaining. Any help or interst would be appreciated. I am way over my head here once we get beyond basic understanding of the Vaporiziing burner and oil controls to them..

[Rob Beckers]

Larry, I just wanted to add that if you and your members want to make yourself at home here you're very welcome to do so. It might be an easier format than a Yahoo group, for uploading pictures, and discussion threads. We can certainly use more discussion here!

-RoB-

[Larry Hollenberg]

Bob,

Thanks for the invite, but for the most part our members are into old rather than new things. And we have a nitch that is a bit different than what goes on here. It's like our exciting discussion is finding an old oil cookstove and restoring it.. Not exactly high tech. But as I mentioned I really enjoy both myself, not sure a lot of the others do?
I don't want to take members from here to there.. I sort of hoped like I belong to a number of groups for things I am interested in, that with what appears to be a new trend to blend the old with the new so to speak, that maybe a few people who are disposed to helping others and interested in the bio fuels might give us a hand when needed.
Speaking of which.. anyone have any thoughts on a question that just came up as to the fact that in winter the soy diesel won't flow? I know the dyed diesel I get is a number 1. The only reason the dealer has it is to add to the number 2 to make it lighter in winter.. Could a fourth or quarter tank of kerosene mixed with the soy make it work?
Also what exactly is ethanol? I know they have an E85 blend at some stations here, but My gut guess is that is an explosive fuel? what about all ethanol. You can see I am not up on this at all.

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Larry,

I'll leave the diesel questions to someone else. As to ethanol, that's the same stuff you have in beer (4.5% ethanol), wine (11 or 12% ethanol), whiskey (40% ethanol) etc. Commenly referred to as 'alcohol', though that's a generic name for anything with a particular chemical makeup (such as methanol, ethanol, glycol etc., those are all alcohols). Ethanol is the 'edible' variant of alcohol, though I wouldn't start sipping it from the pump, there's probably additives that will do you in. E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% regular gasoline. Ethanol is basically a gasoline substitute, though the engine needs to be built to handle it (for one, it's tough on certain rubbers that are used in gaskets). Ethanol won't replace diesel, it's a much 'lighter' fuel (burns easier, faster, with less energy per unit weight, can't handle nearly as much compression as diesel before detonating, and will do bad things to your diesel engine if you try to run it in there).

Hope this helps!

-RoB-

[Larry Hollenberg]

Do you know if the Ethanol is an explosive fuel or more like kerosene? Being thinner would perhaps be a plus in stoves as they won't handle heavy fuels.. Some discussion is going on now about using waste oil, I don't think the control valves or burners are designed for that kind of product?

[Rob Beckers]

More like gasoline than kerosene, ie. "explosive" if that's the term to use...

-RoB-