Axial-Flow-Turbine

[Tony Nelson]

Here I am - a new voice Now - 2008
The paradigm shifts, we see the signs.
The Perpetual Motion Earth is out of balence
& we are gathered on this site to do something about it,
So for me , a sailor , who has knowledge of pumps / props / turbines
When I was stuck in a sinking boat, chucking tedious bucket after bucket
I resolved to make a better bilge pump & I have!
It's astonishing / very effective / high flow ~ low head / good efficiency.
The prototype proves the concept & performance
An average bloke can lift a ton of water up a meter in a minute.
That will be useful in many applications.
Then I put a perm mag gen on it & dropped the water in to get watts out.
Using a F&P smartdrive I expect about .5 Kw but have still to test it.
The video is being made, website planned, info will be out-there.From the designers shed to production line is a long road :: specially for a product destined for a rough life of continuous operation in a variety of applications / installations & circumstances from peasant agriculture to sea salvage in storms.
In this forum the vision of a steep stream feeding a humming turbine to energise two wires with enough power for our needs is the idea.
I've got ideas from working with marin ag & industrial pumps + a bit of hydro
I'm learning as I go -- currently assembling the rectifier components, planning the test rig , looking for someone with "Solidworks" experience , here in Sydney - far from you [ on a warm day today ]
Then the plan is to distribute the design.
Let's get ideas flowing - what do you think?
Tony Nelson --Botany Bay

[Mark Parsons]

Greetings Tony,

I have an immediate application for your axial flow turbine.

I have a 15" ID PVC pipe flowing water in the creek at my cottage. I was planning on putting one of these Ampair turbines inside this pipe later this year. http://www.ampair.com/ampair/waterpower.asp

There is very little in the way of propeller turbines on the market. I have been considering building something for this application but haven't yet. I built a Banki unt a few years ago that gets me a few watts from sitting in the creek flow.

Regards,
Mark

[Tony Nelson]

Yes Mark,
The Ampair with the shaft held by 2 bearings [for centering & thrust ] in a pipe bend ,with a shaft-seal, will enable the prop to spin the genny.
This arrangement keeps the electrics dry & requires no seal .
The aquair in a pipe would work.
To optimise the efficiency, the impeller should turn inside a ring with small clearance @ blade tips, which can be trimmed to square ends.
By making a casing to accelerate the flow around the Aquair-body & into the ring section : then a draft-tube to suck-it out : Well thats the art of turbine=design.
Yes/but submerged motor-generator electricity is underwater for no good reason in this case [ unless you have sudden deep floods ]
The ideal is to have the elec-gear above the highest flood, or on a tethered float, or easy to disconnect & move , while the river rises & the rain pours [ possible but not desirable ]
Anyway I've been working on this with my dad Hugh & this is the one.
It's the sizes / shapes / RPM / ratios & pitch.
Water passages shaped to stream the flow .
Exquisite : I love playing with water.
Body-Surfing in Bondi's big surf gave me a feel for the power & energy of moving water + delight & fitness!
Now a Master Mariner, I roam boat to boat, next event Oz-Day on Sydney Hbr. All vessels propel differently - it's an issue -propeller performance.
So too turbines : efficiency is a vital factor, also the design for function / durability / maintainability /reliability / adaptable to a variety of installation conditions.
I've got 8 prototypes of PHEG & pedal-pump.
Testing the F&P "Smartdrive" unit is next-soon
Then more design & testing :
Eventually one can plug into your creek in Ontario
& all over this World elec-energy from falling water can be cheap[er]
Basic beginners 12V DC to 3-Ph AC+HV for transmission.
We're all here for this!
It's a question of design!
Zap + _ +_

[Pete Smyth]

Hi Tony,
Good luck with your pump - I am in the throws of patenting A VAWT at the moment and in Australia - I know it is not easy (or cheap) .
I hope a can assist with some ideas for you - your vision of a steep stream feeding a humming turbine to energise two wires with enough power for your needs is obviously great.
The best water turbine to generate power at the moment appears to be a vortex style - see http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Zotloterer_Gravitational_Vortex_Power_Pl ant#How_it_Works
But even this amazing device is limited by the relatively poor performance of the generator. Perhaps linking your device to this could pump water at very high efficiency to a high storage tank or dam.

I am currently working on a solution to get 2 to 3 times the efficiency of the generator, by directly converting VAWT energy to heating water with Eddy currents and pumping this water to a storage tank. This tank is to be kept just under boiling - and small amounts of grid energy could produce power on demand by heating this already near boiling water to steam and feeding it through a steam turbine to create power on demand.
More details under Green Power Talk Forum > Renewable Energy > Wind Power > VAWT HOT WATER - Greater Efficiency?

As an extension of this idea the water from this high storage tank could again power a vortex turbine that could turn an eddy current generator? This would then create hot water that could be integrated with a solar hot water system ,VAWT turbines etc.

Exiting stuff - but is this practicable?

A more restrained and cheaper solution would possibly be to use your pump with the vortex turbine (or some other turbine) to lift the water to a higher level and then feed it through the humming bird - not as exciting but you'd have a result much sooner.

I have a dam above a very erratic creek that flows only 1 month a year if lucky - but when it floods the force of this water is unbelievable!.

I am focussed on the eddy current concept at the moment, but getting hot water from creek energy is certainly an interesting idea.

Ok Tony - you wanted ideas flowing - this should stimulate the old grey cells!
Cheers
Peter









Here I am - a new voice Now - 2008
The paradigm shifts, we see the signs.
The Perpetual Motion Earth is out of balence
& we are gathered on this site to do something about it,
So for me , a sailor , who has knowledge of pumps / props / turbines
When I was stuck in a sinking boat, chucking tedious bucket after bucket
I resolved to make a better bilge pump & I have!
It's astonishing / very effective / high flow ~ low head / good efficiency.
The prototype proves the concept & performance
An average bloke can lift a ton of water up a meter in a minute.
That will be useful in many applications.
Then I put a perm mag gen on it & dropped the water in to get watts out.
Using a F&P smartdrive I expect about .5 Kw but have still to test it.
The video is being made, website planned, info will be out-there.From the designers shed to production line is a long road :: specially for a product destined for a rough life of continuous operation in a variety of applications / installations & circumstances from peasant agriculture to sea salvage in storms.
In this forum the vision of a steep stream feeding a humming turbine to energise two wires with enough power for our needs is the idea.
I've got ideas from working with marin ag & industrial pumps + a bit of hydro
I'm learning as I go -- currently assembling the rectifier components, planning the test rig , looking for someone with "Solidworks" experience , here in Sydney - far from you [ on a warm day today ]
Then the plan is to distribute the design.
Let's get ideas flowing - what do you think?
Tony Nelson --Botany Bay

[Jeff Birkle]

Hi all.
I have an off grid cabin in the woods with a small creek running through it.
The specs for the water are
100 feet per minute=1.67fps=.5mps=1knots
2.45 gps=145gpm
with a 22" head.
The turbine i built, puts out 15 watts @ 40 rpm during the dry season.
During rainy or spring run off power goes up to 70 + watts. @ 80 rpm.
After 2 years i'm still making improvements and think i can get another 30% out of it.
It uses an axial flux alternator and works really well!
My fridge ran all last summer.
Jeff Birkle

[Mario De Castris]

Hello Jeff,

Nice to see your post. If possible I will like to see some pictures of your set up at Flinton, as I have mentioned to you I would hope some day to be able to do something with the water in front of my house and with the creek that crosses the recreational property I am about to buy north of Belleville.

Mario

[Mark Parsons]

Greetings Jeff,
I concur with Mario. Please do show us some photos of your set-up. A new thread would be appropriate to discuss your solution.

I suspect that I have more water resource available than your creek. I have a 15.5" ID smooth wall pipe in place as a culvert that takes less than 1/5 of the creek low summer flow unobstructed. I am in the midst of manufacturing a propeller turbine to harvest power from the flow through this pipe. I scrounged a further 4' length of this pipe so that I can manufacture the turbine assembly in my shop. I bought on E-bay a 14" diameter 4 blade 18" pitch brass propeller. I turned the aluminum prop shaft on the lathe last weekend and plan on getting the support bearings and spiders mounted this weekend. Using a repair sleeve I can easily mount the turbine assembly to the end of the buried pipe.

I will be using a 3 phase PM servo motor as the PMA. It produces 125VAC per 1000RPM. I will be charging batteries so only need about 80RPM for 12VDC cut-in. With the 18" pitch propeller this relates to a water velocity of 0.7m/s (1.6mph). Should be easily obtained even during low summer levels. I'm expecting to harvest about 50W minimum from my set-up. However, as I've learned over the years, expectations and reality sometimes differ... ;)

Greetings Mario,
Glad to see you posting again. I trust your extended European vacation last summer was pleasant?

What sort of water resource are you looking at on your recreation property?

Regards,
Mark

[Mario De Castris]

Hello Mark,

Yes the vacation was great even though a bit too hot for my liking but as you know the August temperature was quite high here as well. August is the best time back home to visit with all my school buddies and to catch all the festivities. If everything goes according to plans the property in question has a very large creek which is more like a river but not sure about the velocity of the flow. I would suspect something similar to the flow in front of my house which by the way I forgot to have you look at when you were here, (maybe next time) also I did not have a chance to show you the hot water system I have complete with three panels.

TTYL Mario

[Tony Nelson]

I'm still at it ~ far away, here in Oz ~ lightbulb moments happen!
Improvements accumulate ~ I've been busy at University investigating diffuser//stators ::
it's the recovery of pressure from velocity energy, by increasing the size of the flow-passage :: while straightening to axial with stator vanes.
All the energy is imparted to the water by the impeller ~ALL ELSE IS LOSS~
minimising the loss is the "ART OF HYDRODYNAMICS"
Until this design is further improved ; I'm reluctant to reveal it ~ saves on superceeded models of inferior performance! being trashed -
A Collaborator is coming to help ~ progress will occur
&& this is the design for "general-purpose" simple, effective, entry-level machinery.
The next prototype is almost ready for action, but I go away awhile,bush!
Into the New Year boldly~~~~~~

[Gary Magwood]

Tony in Botany Bay,

I too am a sailor... beautiful 45 year-old S&S wooden sloop. I've logged a few thousand ocean miles and have the tales to tell!
Anyway, I own an old grist mill site on the Moira River in Ontario that includes a 3 metre high dam and the Crown Patent on the water flow, dating back to 1833! I am obviously very interested in developing a micro hydro project. I have been approached by several companies but to date not ready to "sign on the line." I would very much like to know more about your technology or if you would be interested in experimenting on a Canadian site.

Gary Magwood
Latta, Ontario
sail@kos.net

[Paul Bailey]

Hi Gary : You Have a massive flow potential on the Moira River for at least half the year, Is the site not Locked. due to its historical value ???? Attach some Photos Please so others can see the beauty of your site. Welcome to the group Paul:)

[Tony Nelson]

OK~ Still at it, putting the final touches on the Demo-Rig : then the video so YOU myPEERS can see for yourself & if you're in faraway [to most] Sydney Town, try the "Feets-on" experience : which cannot be conveyed by word / picture / video, like riding a bike, flying a glider, sailing a boat, you only know the feeling if youDO it.
Progress happens steadily.

[Tony Nelson]

Slow progress:: Now the pedal-pump has been rebuilt again, with added features, much better.Soon to make a dynomometer rig using F&P Smartmotor to get the mini-hydro output.

[Rob Beckers]

Hi Tony,

Good to hear you're still at it!
Post a few pictures when you have a moment. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words...

-RoB-

[Gary Magwood]

Hi Gary : You Have a massive flow potential on the Moira River for at least half the year, Is the site not Locked. due to its historical value ???? Attach some Photos Please so others can see the beauty of your site. Welcome to the group Paul:)

Hi Paul,

It has taken me a few months to get these photos together ...some from my digital camera and others from friend's shots. I hope they provide a mini oversight of my property.

Gary