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View Full Version : ecoEnergy & My Leaky House


Rob Beckers
31st May 2008, 09:18
Last Thursday I had an energy audit done. In part to find out just how bad this big (2547 sq. ft.) old (well, 21 years only actually) house is, in part because it is required to take advantage of the Canadian ecoEnergy retrofit rebate program (http://www.oee.nrcan.gc.ca/corporate/retrofit-summary.cfm). The way it works is that you have an energy audit done. This results in recommendations of what to improve. You then have 18 months to make improvements. Finally, you have another energy audit done to verify the results and receive your rebate. There is a fixed rebate for specific upgrades. Also, Ontario matches the federal rebate with a provincial one, doubling the money one receives (this may be the same in other provinces, I do not know though). Sample rebates are: Installing solar hot water nets one $500 + $500 (federal + provincial), installing an on-demand hot water heater instead of the tank-type is good for $250 + $250, a new window is $30 + $30 each, and the mother-of-all-rebates; replacing a regular furnace with a ground/water-source heat-pump nets one $3,500 + $3,500. There are many more items listed that result in rebates, improving insulation and such, and the maximum one can receive is $5,000 + $5,000.

The energy audit itself cost $350, minus an Ontario rebate of $150 (no federal rebate for that one), making for $200 total plus tax. The process took around two hours, with the auditor taking note of all the insulation values (ceiling, walls etc.), and heating equipment. This was followed by a blower-door test to see how leaky the house is, and a walk-through with a little thingy that makes smoke, to see where the leaks are located.

I'll have to wait another week to receive the official report. However, the auditor noted that he rarely had to run the blower motor that hard to depressurize the house, indicating massive air leakage. It explained in part the massive gas furnace we have (his comment was "we usually find this BTU size in a building like a church), luckily it's a 92% efficient 2-stage furnace. The walk-around revealed there were no large holes that caused the air leakage. The cause, for the most part, were the windows. Air was leaking alongside the window frames, because there is no house-wrap on this house, no foam between the window and walls, and the vapor barrier has not been taped to the window frames. Just a little fiberglass insulation stuffed between frames and walls.

Besides the poor installation, the existing windows are also in bad shape. They are regular two-pane casement windows, no low-E, no argon, so they have a U-value of around 0.6 or 0.7 for the whole window, at best. Besides the poor U-value there's of course the massive air leakage as well. On many of them the mechanism to open/close the window no longer works, or doesn't work well. We knew we were going to have to replace them at some point, and are now considering biting the bullet and doing them all. With 20+ windows that's not a decision to take lightly, the total tab for good windows will likely run around $40K. Getting back $60 per window from the ecoEnergy program doesn't really make a dent in that. Then again, heating outer-space is not cheap either, and probably not going to get any cheaper any time soon.

With that in mind, if anyone has recommendations for good, well-insulated windows I'm all ears! Especially for brands available in Canada. For those in the Ottawa area, recommendations for shops/installers are very welcome too.

When I receive the official report I'll post more.

-RoB-

Don Ross
1st June 2008, 21:49
Hi Rob, Good info. on the eco-energy audit. Is that a serious quote you got from someone there.....$40,000 for doing 20 windows? Back in Dec. 2005 we replaced 11 windows in our house ( which you saw when you were here on the Green Homes tour in /07 and again this spring ) with double pane Low -E Argon filled with reflective coating for about $4500..... installed....they were Canadian made by Northstar and installed by Viewtech windows & doors in Belleville, Ont. There's another company in the Quinte area that does comparable work ( Trenton Window Glass ) so you might shop around a lot more before paying all that dough. I know city prices are crazy, but for $40K you could buy them here & hire someone to install them for a lot less I think. Let me know if you want any # to call.

Rob Beckers
2nd June 2008, 09:02
Thanks for the info Don!
I've heard good things about Northstar windows from reading through some online forums. The $40K is an extrapolation of what a buddy of mine down the road paid when he replaced a few windows with Pella brand windows last year. In fact, $40K won't cover the windows we have, if we were to go with Pella (around 27 window by last count, and I just remember that I didn't include the 6 small basement windows in that). This is definitely a job I will contract out, I'm not going to attempt doing this myself. Too large a job for me, and my skills in getting the inside trim to look right again would not measure up to the expectations of management. ;)

The plan is to get several quotes and look at a number of brands and options before deciding. From my perspective, I rather pay a bit more now and have windows that last a very long time, and work well in terms of insulation, air infiltration etc. For now, the two companies I have on my list to visit are Window Works, and ThermoTech Windows (http://www.thermotechwindows.com/), both in Ottawa. The latter looks interesting; they sell fiberglass windows with double or triple pane glazing (with low-E coatings and argon). Their triple-pane windows have an overall U-value that's as high as I've ever seen for any window. Only problem is that I can't find much information about ThermoTech windows, good or bad. Warranty looks good, but as we all know that only goes so far. In any event, the choice will be either aluminum-clad-wood or fiberglass windows.

-RoB-

Paul Bailey
2nd June 2008, 22:03
Wow !!! its hard to look at the big Picture here when your presented with so many APPARANT Outages that are consuming alot of your energy dollars and its tough to know where to start. Note ( Rob - a 20 year old house is not really that old). As I mentioned earlier in our other private message I think the auditor will present you with some really enlightening numbers and it will be a wake up call. His numbers and accuracy will be reasonably close , and thats good for your final cost analysis and decision making on where to start. Usually its 1)Attic 2) basement 3) air infiltration 4) then windows being the longest payback if I remember correctly., but I may be wrong since its been awhile and yours may be exactly the opposite order. I'll talk windows in the next reply. Is your 18 year old furnace rated at 82% , Also what is the BTU rating Vs your calculated heatloss ????:) AS they say go for lowest hanging fruit first ( fastest payback and easiest to do) then work up!!!!

Rob Beckers
3rd June 2008, 06:29
Paul, the official report has not arrived yet, so no real news. Like you, I've heard of new windows having the longest payback time. However, that is based on the heat losses through the glass (and air infiltration around the seals for windows that open). In my particular case the situation is that the original windows were not put in properly. We have fairly massive air infiltration around the window frames (around the outside of it). To fix that the choice is to either pull off the trim on both sides and re-install the existing windows properly, or replace them and make sure the new windows get installed right. The existing windows are in pretty poor shape, on many the open/close mechanisms don't work or don't work well. On some there's moisture between the panes. So, yes, in general I would not advocate replacing windows since it normally is an expensive upgrade with very long payback times. In this particular case it seems that replacing the windows could save serious heating bill dollars. I wish I knew a way to calculate the effect of stopping those leaks on the heating bill, but short of making a computer model of the whole house I suppose I'll just have to hope for the best.

The furnace is a 137,000 BTU 92% efficient natural gas furnace, now around 10 years old. As to fixing attic and basement air infiltration first: It turned out we didn't have many holes there. The windows were really the big whopper. There's room to increase the attic insulation, so that's something we're considering.

-RoB-

Paul Bailey
14th June 2008, 11:33
Hello Rob and the group: Rob I had promised you a reply on the windows a couple post back so here goes> I am not a window expert at all but I have read a couple books a few years back, maybe 15 years or so while researching the Canadian advanced Housing program and there pilot projects ( Waterloo, Ontario Green Home). Here are a few Key pointers I learned way back from a friend with 25 years in glass and an uncle with 45 years in the window Business. 1) All sealed window units WILL leak out he gas eventually ,usually around the end of warranty of course:mad: 2) windows with the wider glass spacing will bide you more time before failure due to more dessicant in the spacer, and a better R-Value with the wider spacing . 3) Krypton gas between the panes is 30 + percent more efficient than argon. 4) Put the BEST R-Value windows on the north wall of course where your greatest heat loss would be. 5) Since LOW-E is standard now, thats a go. 6) The higher end windows do not always mean they are Better , BUT Pella for example you can order window parts back to 1955.. 6) If your present windows are leaking and condensated between the glass get a small drill bit and drill a hole in opposite corners . by the next morning it will be clear to see out of it again. (yes it works). More to follow on this when I get more time. Paul:) Rob : any update on the Energy audit??

Rob Beckers
16th June 2008, 21:51
Thanks Paul! I appreciate the info!
Not a whole lot of news about the energy audit yet. The person that did the job sent me an E-mail last week that he was working on the report, so presumably it's on the way. He did mention that he had checked, and I qualify for a $7,000 rebate if I install a water-source heatpump. That has my interest, as we already have the second (return) well. So that money might just mean a free heatpump. I have to look into it a bit more.

Meanwhile, we (my wife, daughter, and I) are having a few weeks of vacation with a little work thrown into it: We're driving from Ottawa to the west coast for the past 3 days. First to Seattle (so, doing the US side of the border, Yellowstone and such), then my wife has a conference in Victoria BC, and we're driving back on the Canadian side. On the way I'll be visiting some of my Scirocco dealers to see if I can get them to sell more wind turbines. Right now we're in Wall, South Dakota. Tomorrow it's on to the Bad Lands and the Black Hills.

To make a long story short, I expect the report will be waiting for me when we get back from this trip. In about 3 weeks. We will start looking for replacement windows in earnest at that time too. Drilling holes in the ones that are shot won't really do much at this point; many of the open/close mechanisms are failing, some of the wood (they're ALU-clad wood) is rotting. They're just at the end of their life after 21 years.

-RoB-