Warranty void when solar panels installed by DIYers

[Shawn Brown]

I'm trying to purchase a FPC for my SDHW system, but keep running into roadblocks. Just about every manufacturer I've spoken to says the warranty is void if I install the system myself. Has anyone else ran into this problem? Any suggestions?

[Paul Bailey]

Whats the FPC ??

[Ralph Day]

Paul,
Are you just getting off of night shift?? FPC Flat Plate Collector. Must be tired.:laugh:

Ralph

[Paul Bailey]

Thanks Ralph: My directory Tree ( brain) is full of corporate world acronyms X 200 and this FPC did not register on 4 hrs sleep. It does seem fitting for the occasion though. Most contractors just call them FLATS or the other ones EVACS.:)

[Brian McGowan]

Shawn,
If they won't warranty the unit if you install it then you might as well build your own and install it. That's how I would do it. The money you save would probably allow you to screw up once anyway without losing. You will also learn about it. They obviously don't want your business. You are using this for domestic hot water right?

I made a hello thread where I talked about solar air heaters along with other things just a couple messages below this one. John Canivan responded talking about his solar water heaters for home heat and DHW. His unit looks easy enough to build and is interesting. Perhaps you should talk to him about his stuff and maybe you can just build and install your own units. Otherwise, FPCs are not all that hard to make. If you can solder pipe and do a little carpentry you can probably pull it off.

Just a thought,
Brian

[Shawn Brown]

Brian,

Thank you for the suggestions. I've done lots of carpentry and plumbing over the years so a panel shouldn't be too big of a challenge. Hardest part will be finding time to build it. Not sure how I'll press grooves in the copper absorber fins, but I guess a machinist could do it quite quickly.

I've advertised for used panels, but there does not seem to be any.

Shawn.

[Brian McGowan]

Shawn,
I am not terribly familiar with how exactly these panels are constructed. I understand the science but not the practical engineering. I figure it's just a flat piece of copper, I don't know how thick they like, with pipe soldered to it and the whole thing painted black in an insulated box with a clear lid. You are talking about pressing grooves in fins and now I'm not so sure I am correct in my thinking. I imagine the copper is very thin similar to a roll of copper flashing I have that is about 3.5' wide. Is there a particular model you would like to copy that I can go out on the web and see to get an idea of what you are trying to do?
If you are thinking of trying to press grooves in the copper plate for the pipe to sit in to increase surface area contact between the plate and the pipes I had this, probably ill concieved, thought.

Make your pipe array.
Find a large flat quantity of sand or very soft earth.
Lay the plate on the sand/earth.
Lay the pipe array on the copper plate.
Lay a thick piece of plywood on the pipe array.
Drive over it starting with the lightest vehicle you own and moving to heavier vehicles until you get the desired depth checking frequently to be sure you are not damaging it.

If you are thinking about seperate strips of copper for the long lengths of pipe in the array the the task becomes easier. All you need is sand a little longer and wider than the plate and a board on top and you could probably just stand on it and move around and gently sink the pipe into the copper.
Think about this carefully before doing it. I am not sure how this will work out. It is just a thought.

I hear you about finding time. I am desperately trying to get my new air heater box together. Heating season is here. I'm trying to clear a space in my garage so I can work at night. Too much regular maintainance bogging down my time this year.

There is a guy near me that has about 6 large water heating panels that he installed in the early 80's when we almost got smart. He took them down after 18 years or so and just stood them up on their sides in the weather. A coworker took me to see them but by the time I got to see them they were in really bad shape. They were unprotected and the boxes werew made out of a kind of pressboard that was dissintegrating and the fiberglass insulation was soaked many many times. The glazing was the translucent but not transparent fiberglass panels and some of those were cracked. He said they leaked water in the end. My coworker thought they were PV panels but had never looked at them up close. I was less interest in them when they weren't. I was talking to the both of them while I gave the panels a quick look but I did not really pay attention to their plumbing or construction.

That's all for now.
Brian

[Jamie Forrester]

Hello all, I'm still doing research and not building anything yet but I wanted to share this link
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/CopperAlumCollector/CopperAlumCol.htm
he uses a mixture of copper pipe and aluminum flashing to make his panels. I'm a bit concerned about a reaction between the different metals but I don't know how big of an issue this would be. Just substitute the copper flashing for the aluminum and everything else looks fine.

I've also run across issues with products not being under warranty if not installed by a "professional". Couple that with the extra expenses and I'll be building my own just as soon as I get moved somewhere sunny enough to be worth while.

[Shawn Brown]

I've drawn up a design based on the link in Jamie's posting. I've made some modifications to include:

-aluminum frame
-polyisocyanurate insulation (1") on both the back and sides
-low iron tempered glass
-3/4" headers
-a different method of attaching the absorber plates to the risers that negates the need for plywood backing
-both front and back absorber plates will have grooves pressed into them


These simple changes should lighten the weight and improve efficiency. I don't anticipate any corrosion problems due to dissimilar metals because there is no electrolyte between them. I will probably stick with aluminum absorbers to keep the cost down. Also, was thinking if I build two 4'x4' collectors they'll be easier to haul up onto the roof next spring.

Brian: The panels that I'm most familiar with are made by Enerworks and Thermo-Dynamics, and Viessman. Enerworks and Viessman refused to give warranty coverage.

When I start building I'll post photos.

[Ralph Day]

Hi Jamie
Don't forget that water heat collectors don't rely on optical light but on infared. You'll get that on hazy and cloudy days (although not as much as on a bright sunny day).

Maybe building a prototype where you are (?) would give valuable insights before building where you want to be (Bahamas?):nuts:

Ralph

[Brian McGowan]

Shawn,
What you are proposing sounds good and workable. The guy making the fins in Jamies's link has a better rig for bending them. The only thing I would suggest is to maybe use heat sink compound in the grooves before placing them on the pipe. This will spread out and help make better physical contact with the pipe and help transfer heat.

What glass are you getting and from where? What is the light transmissivity rating? Low iron is supposed to be the best.

I will check out the units you mentioned when I get a chance.

Brian

[Shawn Brown]

Hi Brian,

Thank you for all the tips. I've heard several people mention the heat sink compound. Where can it be purchased? Electronic stores?

I plan to purchase the glass at the local window manufacturer (Berdick). Hopefully low iron glass is fairly common and not something that needs to be special ordered. I can find out about the transmissivity rating.

I was thinking today about how I'm going to mount the collector. As we now get 100km/h winds here occasionally (thanks to global warming) it will have to fastened very securely. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Shawn.

[Brian McGowan]

Shawn,

Here is a 5lb can for $142. Probably way more than you need.
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=VVKQmw408U9UwPjfJUBSlA%3d%3d

There is an 8 oz jar for $23.38. You might need 2-3 of these. My guess is not real good since I have no idea how tight you can get the groove to begin with.
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=VVKQmw408U%2fIozo037qRCg%3d% 3d

I just bought a 2oz jar for $13.74 but I'm using it for electronics. This is probably no where near enough.
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=EPWPlIynIogOUJlEUTWxYw%3d%3d

I am wondering if just plain old white exterior latex paint wouldn't help. The above heat sink compound is made of zinc oxide which conducts the heat and the silicone grease which keeps the stuff wet and conforming to take up gaps between things you want to conduct heat to. The white paint uses titanium oxide for it's pigment which would conduct heat also and latex which would be conformal until it dries. Since this thing will get hot and cold there will be expansion and contraction so flexibility is needed.

As for mounting you are on your own. I am making solar air heating boxes but I'm going to stand them up straight against my house. I really want to get my solar panels up on the roof to help get them out of the tree shadows but I really don't want to put holes in my 6 year old roof for 3 panels. Where do you want to mount them? Let me know how you make out with that.

Brian

[Jamie Forrester]

Hi Jamie
Don't forget that water heat collectors don't rely on optical light but on infared. You'll get that on hazy and cloudy days (although not as much as on a bright sunny day).

Maybe building a prototype where you are (?) would give valuable insights before building where you want to be (Bahamas?):nuts:

Ralph

It's not an issue with clouds. I currently live on the north side of a hill with a backyard and land behind it covered with 100 to 150 foot tall trees. My front yard saw the last of the sun for this year about two weeks ago and it should be back sometime in march.

With some luck this house will be sold soon and the new place which has full sun exposure every day of the year (dependant on weather of course) will be where I'm setting everything up.

Until then I research and wait.

I've often wondered if you could make your own heat transfer compound far more cheaply then buying that electronics stuff. Grease and some form of metal power to make it conduct. It doesn't need to be as good as the proper stuff to be a huge gain over nothing or caulking.

[Ralph Day]

Hi Jamie
Your location doesn't sound like prime real estate for renewable energy production, but hey...if any nuclear exchange were to happen to the south of you you'd be in better shape than most. Lots of EMP protection with the hill and trees (one would hope). :wacko:

Ralph

[Shawn Brown]

Brian,

I had a look at anti-seize compounds and it looks like they might work. Certainly a lot cheaper than the heat sink compounds. The manufacturers all tend to claim that they prevent galvanic corrosion (should any moisture get in) and work at very high temperatures without degradation. Also, they are readily available at automotive and hardware stores.

Shawn.

[Kori Tolland]

Shawn,
If they won't warranty the unit if you install it then you might as well build your own and install it. That's how I would do it. The money you save would probably allow you to screw up once anyway without losing. You will also learn about it. They obviously don't want your business. You are using this for domestic hot water right?

I made a hello thread where I talked about solar air heaters along with other things just a couple messages below this one. John Canivan responded talking about his solar water heaters for home heat and DHW. His unit looks easy enough to build and is interesting. Perhaps you should talk to him about his stuff and maybe you can just build and install your own units. Otherwise, FPCs are not all that hard to make. If you can solder pipe and do a little carpentry you can probably pull it off.

Just a thought,
Brian

If I don't have that much experience in doing this kind of construction, to you still think it would be worth it to try to do it myself to save some money? I was thinking about hiring a solar installer (http://www.getsolar.com/) to do it. I can do carpentry no problem, but it would be my first time soldering..:unsure:

[Brian McGowan]

I always think it is worth trying it yourself. Are you talking about a solar domestic water heater arrangement or a solar air heater?

For soldering pipe and so forth, get a small propane torch and solder and flux and some old copper pipe and try your hand at just soldering some pieces of pipe together and take them apart and solder them together again. When you are confident of your skills buy good pipe and make your device. Find some instruction on the web. You can't be any worse at soldering than I am at carpentry. The only way to learn is try. Do you know anybody that is a plumber that would be willing to give you a few pointers? It's not very hard.
Make sure parts are shiny clean where soldering will occur.
Flux both parts
Apply heat to bottom since heat rises and get them both up to the same temperature and apply solder. It should flow to both parts as it melts.
Let it cool.

Torch for propane bottles about $13
http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgyZbqew/R-100079143/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Solder about $14
http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgyZbqew/R-100342559/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Flux about $3
http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgyZbqew/R-100342559/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Not too much to give it a try.


Give me a better idea of what you are trying to make and where you are located and maybe I can help more.

Brian

[Brian McGowan]

Sorry, forgot the propane cylinder about $3
http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgyZbqew/R-100065486/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053